Also D2 is not stainless as at least 5% of its chromium is tied up in carbides where it doesnt help prevent corrosion. Cold Steel still uses VG-1 on some knives, and, for the money, it does well. Hi Larrin Youve occasionally mentioned cryo treatment in your posts, including here with LC200N. But a few overly vocal forgers were making claims about it that clearly were not true especially when comparing it to 5160. There are a few other complicating factors such as carbon in solution and plate martensite, especially in low alloy steels such as described in this article. 14C28N vs. D2. Lets talk about the clip-on pocket knife. I have not provided a rating for ease in sharpening. in relation to hardness). Distilled water can separate steels that are stainless vs those that are not. I think this website is aimed at dispelling these kinds of assertions. One is certainly anti-China bias, as you pointed out. great work, larrin. Like 154CM, there is a newer version, S35VN, which shares many of the same attributes as S30V but is easier to craft into a knife thanks to niobium. Edge retention is the ability of a knife to maintain cutting ability during cutting. Goes to show that science not marketing or conjecture is what determines a good steel, 51shitty? 1095 Actually, Id be thinking 14C28N, but I want to leave stainless out. Thanks Larrin, Everything you need to know to buy the right knife for the job. If you're stuck between 14C28N and 440C, here's a breakdown of the pros and cons of each type of steel. And Michael Fitzgerald, Tim Marais, and Head VI for increasing their contributions. Things are similar with resistance to chipping and edge deformation. This is a very important factor when selecting a steel for your knife blade, especially if you plan on spending a lot of time outdoors in an area with high humidity.. S30v is a higher ranked steel and considered a true Stainless Steel, with a 14% . Im not sure they answer my question, though, and some of your points dont seem to jive with the info here on Larrins site. This is especially important for chopping knives and for knives with thin edges for enhanced cutting ability and edge retention. I dipped each in lemon juice and left in open air and tested after 30, 100, and 300 minutes, dipping in lemon juice again each time. Five years ago, S30V had a premium price. The both blade are equally wear resistant. Its an update of its 12C27 and 13C26 steels, which were developed for use in shaving razors. What about K390? Recommendations are welcome, If you are cutting against metal I would maybe try K390 in a Spyderco or an S110V knife if you need stainless. Many steel ratings articles pay lip service to the importance of heat treatment without providing examples. Its a costly and challenging process, but it makes extremely fine-grained steels, some of the best for knives, and makes some processes that were previously impossible a reality. Very acute edges are more brittle but remain sharp for longer and cut very well. The Kershaw Leek is a most popular EDC knife that design by legendary custom knife maker Ken Onion. Its in the same class as Vanadis 8 and 10V. Therefore you will use it for a long time without requiring frequent sharpening. 1) the cvn number is just that, a number. quite possibly the best steel youll find on a sub-$30 production knife. CPM 3V If you are a newbie, sharpening D2 knives will be a struggle, but it is doable with practice and the right sharpening tools. I was recommended the Rat 1 in D2 and I also found that I really like the design of the Ruike p135 and p128. It richly deserves its reputation for high-quality gained over the years by Sandvik, a Swedish manufacturer of world-renowned steel. There is an acceptable range for every element so this doesnt mean that 1084 will always have exactly 0.84% carbon. M390 Micarta Sandvik 14C28N steel offers excellent corrosion resistance, exceptional toughness, good edge retention, and is easier to sharpen. In fact Id be delighted to have your experience checking my thinking! They made planer blades out D2 for its edge retention. are after the ratings. Yes its very easy to sharpen but it doesnt hold an edge at all. Also I notice 1095 looks like another underperformer as there doesnt look to be any reason to use it over 5160 which I cant imagine is any more expensive than 1095. Note:There is a powder-metal version called CPM154 thats purer than the non-powder version, making it easier for knifemakers to grind. The D2, on the other hand, has a thicker and more durable blade that is better suited for tough tasks like chopping wood or prying open cans. 420HC doesnt hold an edge well, but its relatively stain-resistant and tough. Heres a brief description of their impact on the resulting steels properties. Both steel types don't chip easily, but 14c28n steel is easier to sharpen. The Sandvik 14c28n steel is ideal for the manufacturing of steel knife blades. You can read an article I wrote on budget steels here. REX 121 is a powder steel produced by Crucible. If the properties of a knife meet your knife needs and it has the above characteristics, then it qualifies as a quality knife. This refers to the angle of your edge and the thickness of the knife behind the edge. The definition of a quality knife differs among users because of varied needs, but there are basic properties that every quality knife must have. D2 is not a bad steel, but it has been around a long time and is somewhat mundane by current standards. We did the research to help you find the best hunting knife for your needs and budget. Its easy to sharpen. I've heard d2 is miles better and i dont want to pay 90 for the p135 and get a significantly inferior blade to paying 110 for the D2 Rat. This was not necessarily because of superior toughness but because of the superior strength of the MagnaCut from higher hardness. I couldnt find much on 5160 steel and from a knife makers point of view if you are saying youre the preferred supplier of special ops than I dont understand this choice in knife steel. It would be interesting to try to develop a conversation between /geometry/edge retention/toughness, so we could say e.g. I also have meat cleaver 1,4116 ,58RC that I order and was looking up if its a good steel or did waist money and need to return it. The 8Cr13MoV vs D2 debate. For example, Bohler M390, CTS-204P, and CPM-20CV are all nearly identical and indistinguishable in practice. It's more often pitted against the VG10 since both are widely popular high-carbon stainless steel grades. LC200N has similar properties to those two but with saltwater levels of corrosion resistance. The main downside is the steel is more difficult to heat treat and cant go harder than about 60 or perhaps 61 Rc. If you are looking for a high-end knife on a budget, the varieties of both steel will serve you. D2 steel does not contain enough chromium to make it stainless steel. This is one of the fundamental tradeoffs in steel. D2 knives, on the other hand, are challenging to sharpen. 14c28n vs. AUS-8 Steel Extra kudos for your mathmatical steel composition to edge holding model thats really impressive work. It has enough water-fighting properties that it can be used in marine environments. Low Carbon steels like AEB-L wont hold up to wood cutting even though it can hit 64 hard, it just doesnt have enough Carbon. On the positive side, they are very easy to forge and grind. As to a difference between 8.6 and 8.5, all of the ratings here are rounded to the nearest 0.5 because better than that probably shows false precision. These images are taken from my book Knife Engineering. Is 440A really that much better than 420HC, or have you found a narrower gap? i understand the samples were treated in the same way. Great for tensile strength and Edge retention. In a pocket knife the total amount of steel is rather small. The 14C28N stainless steel from Swedish manufacturer Sandvik is considered an upgrade to their 13C26 steel (described below). LC200N Phone Hours (MST) and why would anyone want to use it when 420HC looks so much better for a simple stainless steel option. Using 10 dps sharpening (20 degrees inclusive on the chart) leads to about 5x the edge retention of 25 dps. But in my experience, it has been nothing but great. These are Chinese-produced steels that recently started showing up in Chinese-made knives. However, Kershaw asked Sandvik to make their 13C26 steel more resistant to corrosion, and the result was 14C28N. The knife Natrix with substantial copper handle is a deceptively hefty EDC. 14C28N steel is not very hard steel which makes it easier to sharpen. Damascus or pattern welded steel is a result of combining two steels together. I was struggling to simplify all the Rockwell/Youngs Modulus stuff for readers when I came across your site. There are significant differences between them because 14C28N is stainless steel, while D2 steel is a semi-stainless tool steel. This is the steel used in Swiss Army knives and is excellent for beginner sharpeners. It mainly made for knife and it high in Chromium for excellent corrosion resistance. The most significant cost increase comes from powder metallurgy, used to create most of the expensive knife steels. The edge retention numbers are normalized to the hardness of the closest toughness test. Used in knives since at least World War II, 1095 performance varies considerably with an abundance of tweaks in the recipe and heat treat. When we plot toughness vs edge retention on a log scale instead we get a straight line that is a better visualization of toughness differences. The steel comes with increased wear and abrasion resistance properties. Many custom makers enjoy AEB-L, as its easy to machine but still has a high hardness, around 62 HRc. Thanks in advance, Simon, For hard use everyday cutting in a packing company, Everything from fome, cardboard, tape, thick plastics, And plastic wrap that is against metal. The main downside is the steel is more difficult to heat treat and can't go harder than about 60 or perhaps 61 Rc. Sorry, most of my previous comment was borderline word salad. Below shows the results of MagnaCut testing vs other steels where it is labeled as New Steel.. In reality hardly difference. Hi there, 14C28N is thus ideal for use in corrosive environments and challenging applications. Should have a first draft by the end of next week. Hammering through hickory, digging at roots in sandy soil, and cutting around bone did nothing to chip, dent, or roll the edge of my 3V knives. I cant seem to match steel to the SS data points on the toughness/tcc graph. So setting edge geometry for the type of knife and intended use is very important. . In other words, Rex 121 would be the most difficult to sharpen and 5160 and 8670 would be the easiest. 52100 and CruForgeV are good for general purpose knives. Not to sound like a ship, but these two knife inspiration makes this an eye-catching knife. Thank you for the accurate data. Therefore I will be showing the ratings of the steels graphically in terms of toughness-edge retention balance, where steels that are high and to the right have the best combination, and you choose the steel based on the level of toughness or edge retention necessary for the knife. Since the heat treatment is done before you get your knife, and its impossible to tell how good the heat treatment is with your eye, you often must rely on the manufacturers reputation for a good heat treat. It doesnt hold an edge well, but its so easy to sharpen that you can get it back to razor sharpness in a few minutes. Should you continue to scroll further, you may find yourself lost in a seemingly endless list of knife steel wealth and knowledge. These steels are best for knives that dont see impacts and are some of the most difficult to sharpen. The benefit of this, of course, is that the steel holds an edge for a very, very long time. Each of these contributes to a knifes overall performance. For example, D2 has enough chromium to be stainless (~12%) but its high carbon means that too much chromium carbide is formed to leave enough chromium for stainless levels of corrosion resistance. The high hardness makes it all but impossible to sharpen and machine. D2 knives offer higher edge retention than 14C28N knives, which is attributed to the high carbon elements and hardness of D2. They tend to be relatively expensive and difficult to sharpen, as they have high wear resistance. It is among the steel knives with exceptional toughness while maintaining excellent corrosion resistance. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. FRN . 14C28N Leek: D2 Leek: jonnymac44 Joined Sep 27, 2007 Messages 7,674 Oct 21, 2008 #2 Hey Michael, First off, the new 14C28N from Sandvik is just now hitting the streets, and I don't have any results just yet for you. I was recommended the Rat 1 in D2 and I also found that I really like the design of the Ruike p135 and p128. rex 121 Therefore, ensure to wash and dry your knives after use to keep the rust away. The Vargo Sobata 398 is unlike any other knife on this list. Still looking forward to magnacut making it into high volume production and use. 9Cr is the top end of the series and is quite good as good or better than AUS-8. The choice between the two depends on your knife needs. Austenitizing is the process where the steel is heated to high temperature prior to quenching (rapid cooling) to harden the steel. drop point Most of the midrage ifferings have 14c28n, how does it compare to d2 in your experience? What it is: 14C28N is a Sandvik stainless steel commonly used in razors and kitchen knives. Your email address will not be published. The bump in hardness comes from precipitation of fine carbides in the steel, read an article I wrote on budget steels here, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/05/26/new-micrographs-of-42-knife-steels/, https://i0.wp.com/knifesteelnerds.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/stainless-toughness-10-19-21.jpg?w=757&ssl=1, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/10/14/corrosion-resistance-testing/, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/03/02/cpm-spy27-experiments-toughness-corrosion-resistance-and-more/, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/03/cryogenic-part1/, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/10/cryogenic-processing-of-steel-part-2/, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/17/cryogenic-processing-of-steel-part-3/, The Pros And Cons Of Stainless Steel Copper And Aluminum Brewing Equipment SanctuaryBrewCo, https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/. MagnaCut has the lowest chromium of any of the below steels but all of its chromium is in solution (no chromium carbide) and the fact that it has no chromium carbide also gives it the maximum level of corrosion resistance for a given amount of chromium. [Complete Steel Guide], What is Vg-10 steel?- [Steel Knife Review], The Difference Between 440c steel vs d2: Compared guide, Is 8cr13mov Good Knife Steel [Complete Steel Guide], Amazon Best Sellers in Pocket Knives & Folding Knives. in the correct place for the stainless-toughness-edge-retention graphic? I personally don`t care about stainless (sic! Oftentimes steels that are reported to be difficult to sharpen are in fact improperly heat treated and challenging to deburr. Vg10 and cpms45vn same toughness at same hardness ? Below shows pictures of a 61 Rc knife that was impacted with a 3/16 rod at different energy levels. Is this at the same hardness? have extremely high edge retention. Hello LARRIN, do you have a Rough estimate on when ApexUltra (as well as more Magnacut) will become available? Vanadium carbides are among the hardest that form in steel, and chromium carbides are in between iron carbide and vanadium carbide. Even metallurgists can have a difficult time estimating properties just based on the elements. Because of its difficulty in sharpening and machining, its very rarely used and comes with a high price premium. VG-10 steel also has the same level of toughness as 14C28N and the same level of corrosion resistance. 14C28N and D2 knives are affordable high-end knives. There has been some internet controversy over the grinding and heat treat of this steel. But to learn more about these and other attributes, read our related outdoor knife buyers guide. D2 has been around for more than 20 years, an eternity in. The chart below has dotted lines which indicate the average effect of hardness for any given steel. Then you can compare 14c28n vs d2, and we hope you will find the right one for your needs. The big names in powder metallurgy are Crucible (CPM- steels), Carpenter (CTS- steels), Bohler Microclean (M390), and Uddeholm Superclean (Elmax, Vanax). 14c28n steel would be a great pick thanks to its high retention and corrosion, it would be great for a normal EDC knife. That said, it's not as tough as many other steels and exponentially tougher to sharpen. Some steel companies charge more than others. Only a few years ago Elmax was pricey, but competition has driven it down to reasonable levels, making it a decent value. But if when youre searching for tough steel for your outdoor experience camping, or hunting, it would be perfect steel but not the best choice therere other steels with better than toughness that would suit your usage. Hi Larrin, thanks so much for writing this blog and putting so much reliable information into such an accessible form. Its hard to imagine a more rust-inducing environment than saltwater and fish guts. 14C28N is the highest-selling steel of Sandvik, a Swedish steel company. However, even in this case there is the complicating factor of carbide and abrasive hardness. Wusthof Classic Ikon 8-Inch Cooks Knife Review, Victorinox Fibrox Straight Edge Chefs Knife Review, What is Cts bd1 steel? XHP is an exceptionally well-balanced steel with excellent all-around attributes. (Some crazy folks clean their Swiss Army knivesin adishwasher. Id think that line would be significantly to the left, more in the data swarm. There are also hardness/toughness and hardness/TCC charts.but no tables backing this charts. However, it is not really known how many different companies are making 8Cr13MoV (or at least I dont know), it could be that it is one manufacturer that is dominating the market. Maxamet and Rex 121 are so extreme in terms of wear resistance and edge retention that I rated them higher than 10 because otherwise it throws off the ratings for everything else. The most balanced is CPM-MagnaCut which is in an area all by itself on the chart. Dr. Thomas you spoke of using a different media for cutting test and I have some extra veg tan leather and was wondering what are the parameters of the leather you need? Give it a couple of weeks, and feedback will start pouring in. D2 holds it for longer. When describing the characteristics of a steel, a few common attributes are commonly talked about. I like it. Theres a green triangle at about RC 60.5 and toughness over 40. 14C28N is essentially AEB-L (or perhaps more accurately Sandvik 13C26), but with improved corrosion resistance. All rights reserved. Below shows approximate maximum hardness vs stainless rating for several stainless knife steels. The vivid patterns visible in Damascus steel come from the acid etching process in a ferric chloride solution. With a high level ofedge retention, corrosion resistance, and toughness, it does most everything quite well. There are a few aspects to your question, I think. All Rights Reserved. However, many kinds of wood are REALLY tough and very hard on blades. Several factors arent related to the steel you choose but seriously affect the nature of your knifes performance. With steels that have a small amount of carbide the size of the carbides can be kept small through processing (see the AEB-L micrograph earlier in the article). A hunting knife has a singlepurpose: processing meat after akill. VG-1 is a non-powder steel made by Japanese specialty steelmaker Takefu. The steel is an air-hardness tool steel that is considered semi-stainless because of its high chromium content. Thank you for putting this together, incredibly useful! and corrosion resistance than the 420HC steel. What would be the best deal to use I currently alternate between 20CV S35vn and D2. This is also a powder-metal steel produced by American steel company Crucible. This showed that XHP and ZDP-189 have significantly lower corrosion resistance than other stainless steels. And easy to sharpen in our experience; and that will get an excellent razor edge that lasts for a reasonable price of time. 14c28n steel has a high Chromium and Carbon percentage. Toughness 3, Edge Ret 8, Cor Res 4? The line is only in the neighborhood of 5 of the datapoints. While quite soft, the metal cuts even when it seems dull because, at the microscopic level, it has a roughness that performs much like a serration. 14c28n vs D2 Steel. Water is a severe quenchant that can often lead to warping or cracking. Alloying elements are an important ingredient vital in getting the best steel for the job. Im going to give the ratings first and then give more explanation about how the ratings were created. Ive found S35VN less chippy even at the same hardness. The knives are ideal for both indoor and outdoor use. Between the assisted open, weird looking texture designs, and the stainless steel handle, the Cannonball has a lot of features I don't normally like, but even I have to admit it's a good design for the price. For example, increasing edge retention from Z-Tuff to 3V (100 mm in the CATRA test) led to a drop in over 10 ft-lbs, a similar drop is seen by going from 3V to CPM-CruWear. It is certainly possible for a knifemaker or heat treating company to do a heat treatment that will have suboptimal properties. Toughness and edge retention are generally opposing properties and it is difficult to improve both of them at the same time. In this article, we will discuss the characteristics, pros, cons, and differences between 14C28N and D2 knives to help to make the right choice. Furthermore, because of its ultrahigh hardness, Maxamet is very prone to corrosion, probably worse than 1095. Even though it has very high hardness, its also still decently resistant to corrosion and quite tough. Why wouldnt it be possible to make a damascus steel out of (say) AEB-L and s90V, or wouldnt that gain the best of both? worldwide, even the chinese have an equivalent (8cr13mov). 2. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/12/03/cryogenic-part1/ I like it in the Seki City Spydercos, but I would like to know what ratings you would give it. 14C28N vs. D2. I test corrosion resistance of steels by heat treating 1 x 1.5 inch coupons, finishing to about 400 grit, and then spraying with water. Very obtuse edges resist chipping better but dont hold their edge as long and dont cut as well. I actually dont recommend that enthusiasts spend all that much time analyzing the exact composition of different steels and trying to guess their properties. Continue with Recommended Cookies. Did you change the estimate based on more testing? This isnt exactly how steel works; different properties are difficult to increase without affecting something else. And while it can be hard depending on the heat treat, I have found it easily chips, causing microscopic dings in the edge when hardened to a high level on a thin blade. It should get an ultra-sharp edge for easy cutting, hold the edge for long for easy maintenance, and have a sturdy and ergonomic handle for comfort and to prevent accidents. Unfortunately a high amount of it decreases strength. For high wear resistance and edge retention you want a large amount of hard carbides. Uddeholm lists it as somewhat worse in toughness than A2 but somewhat better in wear resistance. High alloy tool steels are designed to be air hardening, so they can be cooled even slower than the oil hardening steels found above. However, the relative difference in toughness between these different examples are similar. D2 steel also resists chipping better than most stainless steel types. In all of the cases above, properties are greatly controlled by carbides. Do honing steels as used on kitchen knives actually do anything useful? You can see that 64 Rc AEB-L has both lower toughness and edge retention than 61 Rc MagnaCut, so I feel that in general you get a better sense of where the steels fit with a single point. Each steel was tested with a knife that was produced just for the test, and then sharpened the same way for each test (15 dps 400 grit CBN sharpening). Here is the article by Larrin on 48 steels. Also known as Z-Finit, Zapp produces this steel in America. 14C28N steel is known to offer the highest toughness levels out there. It has excellent edge retention, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening. Contact me if you have any questions or input! That provides 14% Chromium and offers excellent corrosion resistance. As a result, there are no production knives with REX 121 steel, though Ferrum Forge used the steel early on in its custom knives and a Kickstarter knife from the Creely Brothers. Is Vancron SuperClean a good choice for a chef knife? It is an excellent steel that in the right hands has proven to produce high performing blades. Read more about how it works here. ApexUltra is a steel that we are working on that had excellent properties in small batch production (50 lbs). Non-stainless steels can be heat treated to 66 Rc or even higher depending on the particular steel. Sign up to receive GearJunkie content direct to your inbox. GiantMouse Vox/Anso ACE Iona Liner Lock Knife, Muley Freaks Erik Van Woerkom Charged With Felony Possession of Trophy Mule Deer, The Biggest Improvement to My Camp Kitchen Is a Mini Pizza Oven (But Not for Pizza), Propane Traeger, Moosejaw Coolers, Hybrid HOKAs, Adventure Chess, and More Emerging Gear, Avalanche Outside British Columbia Resort Buries 10, Kills 3 Heli-Skiers, Netflix Unveils First Trailer for Tour de France Series. D2 steel offers better edge retention and wear resistance than 14C28N. Though technically not a stainless steel due to its composition, in use it performs exactly like one. One important concept I want to hammer home is that there isnt one property that is most important. The value being slightly different doesnt mean its an outlier or measurement error. A quick check shows the compositions of these steels are nearly identical, so based on that Id expect them to perform similarly (differences in heat treat and blade geometry aside). There is buzz out there but I havent seen anything solid yet in the world of steel. It also tops out around 60-61 Rc like LC200N and needs relatively careful heat treating to even be that hard. And steels with at least 10% chromium are probably stainless, except for several important exceptions like D2 and ZDP-189. Steel softens as tempering temperature increases, but certain steels see an increase in hardness in a certain higher temperature range such as shown below for high speed steels that are designed for this type of tempering: This high temperature tempering can be done for several reasons, such as better resistance to overheating during grinding, or because a coating will be applied to the knife that requires a high temperature. Rex 45 1. Without any confusion, you can purchase this set that has a slim, versatile, modified drip-point blade with good slicing capabilities. Where the black-finished 1.4116 version has a simple, full flat grind, the D2 version has a compound flat grind that ends halfway up the blade's height. Each test is done with 3 or more specimens to get a good average. can you strike twice as fast with the knife? HA! The ultra high corrosion resistance steels Vanax or LC200N max out around 60-61 Rc instead. Metallurgy and Testing of Knives and Steel. Thanks! D2 steel is more durable than 14C28N, but it scores lower in terms of ease of sharpening and corrosion resistance. Its high hardness and relatively high toughness also make it an excellent choice in cutlery. Sharpening the knives might be challenging, but the D2 knife is high quality and affordable. This makes it a great choice if you don't have . However, it falls behind the Bohler steel in corrosion resistance. They lack the carbon necessary to hold an edge, even during mild use. I would think that the label applies to either the line or the outlier, but probably not both unless the outlier is a measurement error. In real life, would you expect any presumed increase in deviation from the specified formula, as well as the effects of said deviation, to negatively impact the performance of 8Cr13MoV to any truly noticeable degree? Spyderco has their own salt spray test setup to determine the corrosion resistance and they determined that MagnaCut is sufficiently corrosion resistant for their salt series of knives. But SM100 is not widely available, hard to heat treat and grind, and exceptionally expensive. 14C28N and D2 steel are not the same. 440A has more chromium in solution along with a small addition of Mo, but has significant amounts of carbide so the two are an interesting comparison.